I don't know if this is in accord with Forum Protocol, but I'm reponding to a post from [URL="http://www.theamericanview.com/forums/showthread.php?p=30544#post30544"]another thread[/URL], "165: Where Are Dr. Dobson, Focus On The Family, On Colorado's Pro-Life Personhood Amendment To State's Constitution?" Background to Centurion's question: [URL="http://www.theamericanview.com/forums/showthread.php?p=30331#post30331"]J. Glenn Ferrell[/URL] posted some comments on monarchy, which I responded to [URL="http://www.theamericanview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=30338&postcount=59"]here[/URL], [URL="http://www.theamericanview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=30346&postcount=61"]here[/URL], [URL="http://www.theamericanview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=30368&postcount=69"]here[/URL], [URL="http://www.theamericanview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=30449&postcount=77"]here[/URL], and [URL="http://www.theamericanview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=30460&postcount=79"]here[/URL]. The question being discussed is whether God in Deuteronomy 17 [I][B]commanded [/B][/I]Israel to set up a king, or whether it's more accurate to say that God in this passage [I][B]predicted [/B][/I]that Israel would set up a king, which 1 Samuel 8 describes as a sinful rejection of God as King. Centurion hesitated to get involved in this discussion without more information about my background. Part one of my answer is [URL="http://www.theamericanview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=30563&postcount=95"]here[/URL]. This is part two. [QUOTE=Centurion;30544]While we may have drifted somewhat from the subject of this thread, I suggest that our dialog has raised some fundamental questions regarding our identity and calling as believers and God's plan of restoration, in particular the biblical role of the Church -- not just the State, whose divine institutionalization you apparently reject. I have not read your new references. Before I do it would be helpful to know: 1.) Are you and your household communing, submitted, serving, tithing and otherwise covenanted members of a local congregation?[/quote]The answer to that question is in part one, [URL="http://www.theamericanview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=30563&postcount=95"]here[/URL].[QUOTE=Centurion;30544]2.) How do you view the role of the Church in society and your part in it?[/quote]I've started outlining an answer to that [URL="http://www.vftonline.org/VFTfiles/Directory/5b_church.htm"]here[/URL].[QUOTE=Centurion;30544]3.) What is the apostolic doctrine regarding the "restoration of all things", including the public square under the reign of Jesus Christ and His Law-Word?[/quote]I see two completely separate questions there. I believe in a "preterist" view of the "restoration of all things," that it refers to the restoration of fellowship through Christ, not "the public square under the reign of Jesus Christ and His Law-Word," that is, something that has yet to take place. I do believe our goal is to progressively de-secularize the entire world.[QUOTE=Centurion;30544]Regarding this thread: Without knowing the biblical worldviews of those who comment on vital subjects such as ending the genocide called "abortion," it is unlikely that any progress can be made in discussions like ours -- especially when Christians are so widely divided. How many rebels, how many denominations, how many counterfeits?[/quote]I suppose this might be true to some extent. Certainly the more you know about a person, the more effective communication can be. But in another sense, if I give you some scripture passages and ask how they relate to your views, you should be able to integrate those passages into your theology regardless of who I am.[QUOTE=Centurion;30544]Bottom line: How would your view of "legitimate rule" under Christ affect the capital crime of murder? Does He ordain His magistrates for civil justice or not (Rom. 13:1-4)?[/quote]The first "civil magistrate" in Israel, Saul, was "ordained" only in the sense that God predestined him and other kings as pedogogical vehicles to teach Israel about Christ the King of kings. God specifically declares that the setting up of a "civil magistrate" was a rejection of God, so it wasn't "ordained" in the sense of being commanded. As I explained on the other thread, there is no verse in the Bible which proves that a group of people have a right, given by God, to call themselves "the State" and confiscate the wealth of patriarchs like Abraham. There are verses which say we should not resist such people, but no verse that says they have the right to do what they do. Romans 13 says that Christians should submit non-violently to extortion by Caesar, but nobody in his right mind believes that Italy (Caesar) had a divine right to conquer Israel and subject her to military occupation and tribute. If Iran invaded Israel tomorrow, and subjected Israel to tribute, Romans 13 would command submission to the Iranian occupation, but would not legitimize Ahmadinejad's invasion. [URL="http://vftonline.org/XianAnarch/taxation.htm"]Taxation[/URL] is [URL="http://vftonline.org/VFTfiles/thesis/8th_agree.htm"]theft[/URL]. Pay it, but don't levy it. [URL="http://vftonline.org/Patriarchy/predestination/sendevil.htm"]God "Ordains" Evil[/URL] - But Evil is Still Evil. Jesus said "Resist not evil," but evil is still evil. "Turn the other cheek" is not divine approval for cheek-slappers. Commanded submission does not equal legitimate rule. I used to believe the traditional view of the State, but no longer consider it Biblical. I'm developing my own perspective here: [URL="http://romans13.com/"]Romans13.com[/URL] You mention murder: what we have called "capital punishment was given to Noah "and his sons" -- the family, not "the State." I have explored the relationship between capital punishment and patriarchy [URL="http://godandthedeathpenalty.com"]here[/URL].[QUOTE=Centurion;30544]All else you have posted -- re Italy, Iran, contemporary Israel, etc. -- can't have relevant significance for me without knowing your ecclesiastical identity, if you have one.[/QUOTE]I'm happy to set forth my background, but I disagree with this premise. I see the verses which say "Pay Caesar," but I don't see the verses that gave Caesar the moral right to invade Israel and extort "tribute." That challenge is either Biblically valid or it's not, regardless of my own ecclesiastical background.
I don't know if this is in accord with Forum Protocol, but I'm reponding to a post from [URL="http://www.theamericanview.com/forums/showthread.php?p=30544#post30544"]another thread[/URL], "165: Where Are Dr. Dobson, Focus On The Family, On Colorado's Pro-Life Personhood Amendment To State's Constitution?" Background to Centurion's question: [URL="http://www.theamericanview.com/forums/showthread.php?p=30331#post30331"]J. Glenn Ferrell[/URL] posted some comments on monarchy, which I responded to [URL="http://www.theamericanview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=30338&postcount=59"]here[/URL], [URL="http://www.theamericanview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=30346&postcount=61"]here[/URL], [URL="http://www.theamericanview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=30368&postcount=69"]here[/URL], [URL="http://www.theamericanview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=30449&postcount=77"]here[/URL], and [URL="http://www.theamericanview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=30460&postcount=79"]here[/URL]. The question being discussed is whether God in Deuteronomy 17 [I][B]commanded [/B][/I]Israel to set up a king, or whether it's more accurate to say that God in this passage God [I][B]predicted [/B][/I]that Israel would set up a king, which 1 Samuel 8 describes as a sinful rejection of God as King. Centurion hesitated to get involved in this discussion without more information about my background. Part one of my answer is [URL="http://www.theamericanview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=30563&postcount=95"]here[/URL]. This is part two. [QUOTE=Centurion;30544]While we may have drifted somewhat from the subject of this thread, I suggest that our dialog has raised some fundamental questions regarding our identity and calling as believers and God's plan of restoration, in particular the biblical role of the Church -- not just the State, whose divine institutionalization you apparently reject. I have not read your new references. Before I do it would be helpful to know: 1.) Are you and your household communing, submitted, serving, tithing and otherwise covenanted members of a local congregation?[/quote]The answer to that question is in part one, [URL="http://www.theamericanview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=30563&postcount=95"]here[/URL].[QUOTE=Centurion;30544]2.) How do you view the role of the Church in society and your part in it?[/quote]I've started outlining an answer to that [URL="http://www.vftonline.org/VFTfiles/Directory/5b_church.htm"]here[/URL].[QUOTE=Centurion;30544]3.) What is the apostolic doctrine regarding the "restoration of all things", including the public square under the reign of Jesus Christ and His Law-Word?[/quote]I see two completely separate questions there. I believe in a "preterist" view of the "restoration of all things," that it refers to the restoration of man's fellowship with God, lost through the first Adam, restored through the Last Adam. I don't believe it refers to "the public square under the reign of Jesus Christ and His Law-Word," that is, something that has yet to take place. I do believe our goal is to progressively de-secularize the entire world.[QUOTE=Centurion;30544]Regarding this thread: Without knowing the biblical worldviews of those who comment on vital subjects such as ending the genocide called "abortion," it is unlikely that any progress can be made in discussions like ours -- especially when Christians are so widely divided. How many rebels, how many denominations, how many counterfeits?[/quote]I suppose this might be true to some extent. Certainly the more you know about a person, the more effective communication can be. But in another sense, if I give you some scripture passages and ask how they relate to your views, you should be able to integrate those passages into your theology regardless of who I am.[QUOTE=Centurion;30544]Bottom line: How would your view of "legitimate rule" under Christ affect the capital crime of murder? Does He ordain His magistrates for civil justice or not (Rom. 13:1-4)?[/quote]The first "civil magistrate" in Israel, Saul, was "ordained" only in the sense that God predestined him and other kings as pedogogical vehicles to teach Israel about Christ the King of kings. God specifically declares that the setting up of a "civil magistrate" was a rejection of God, so it wasn't "ordained" in the sense of being commanded. As I explained on the other thread, there is no verse in the Bible which proves that a group of people have a right, given by God, to call themselves "the State" and confiscate the wealth of patriarchs like Abraham. There are verses which say we should not resist such people, but no verse that says they have the right to do what they do. Romans 13 says that Christians should submit non-violently to extortion by Caesar, but nobody in his right mind believes that Italy (Caesar) had a divine right to conquer Israel and subject her to military occupation and tribute. If Iran invaded Israel tomorrow, and subjected Israel to tribute, Romans 13 would command submission to the Iranian occupation, but would not legitimize Ahmadinejad's invasion. [URL="http://vftonline.org/XianAnarch/taxation.htm"]Taxation[/URL] is [URL="http://vftonline.org/VFTfiles/thesis/8th_agree.htm"]theft[/URL]. Pay it, but don't levy it. [URL="http://vftonline.org/Patriarchy/predestination/sendevil.htm"]God "Ordains" Evil[/URL] - But Evil is Still Evil. Jesus said "Resist not evil," but evil is still evil. "Turn the other cheek" is not divine approval for cheek-slappers. Commanded submission does not equal legitimate rule. I used to believe the traditional view of the State, but no longer consider it Biblical. I'm developing my own perspective here: [URL="http://romans13.com/"]Romans13.com[/URL]. You mention murder: what we have called "capital punishment" was given to Noah "and his sons" -- the family, not "the State." I have explored the relationship between capital punishment and patriarchy [URL="http://godandthedeathpenalty.com"]here[/URL].[QUOTE=Centurion;30544]All else you have posted -- re Italy, Iran, contemporary Israel, etc. -- can't have relevant significance for me without knowing your ecclesiastical identity, if you have one.[/QUOTE]I'm happy to set forth my background, but I disagree with this premise. I see the verses which say "Pay Caesar," but I don't see the verses that gave Caesar the moral right to invade Israel and extort "tribute." That challenge is either Biblically valid or it's not, regardless of my own ecclesiastical background.