| 1 | Jonathan Albert LaBrie: Matthew 23 is Christ giving woes to those who were essentially the church leaders at the time. It would be the same as Christ going before a board of Pastors today, he is saying these guys preach good stuff, but do as they say not as they d...o. And this is true today, that many pastors are living lies to their congregations you hear about it all the time. In my old church the music director had an affair with a lady in the choir, both seemed so Godly and grounded. So while I agree this is also a warning to anyone who follows Christ, it is important to put it into context as well. |
Kevin Craig:
I think Matthew 23 is more a warning to those who reject Christ than those who follow Him. |
Jonathan Albert LaBrie | Kevin Craig: |
Jonathan Albert LaBrie | Kevin Craig: |
| 2 | As for Westboro they have not one ounce of truth in their message. | I think this generalization violates the Ninth Commandment. They have a lot of truth in their message. They have some non-truths, and they lack some truths, but there is a whole lot of truth in their message. | Box 2: If the Democrats say that George Washington was the first President, or that the 2nd Amendment allows for gun ownership is that not truth? Obama is full of "truth", yet he is also severly misguided when it comes to the TRUTH. This is my comparison for Westboro Baptist (WBC). Sure they believe in Christ and preach from the Bible, but the twist the truth and distort the Gospel so that it is hardly the truth anymore. Someone once said a half-truth is a whole lie. I say this is WBC. | I don't see Westboro "twisting" the truth or distorting the Gospel.
I think I disagree with their style (I'm not sure) but I like their substance. |
Box 2: You said: "I think I disagree with their style (I'm not sure) but I like their substance." You're not sure if you disagree or not with their style? You think that holding a sign that says "God hates fags" is Biblical? | "God hates fags" is a Biblical fact. Holding a sign may not be a Biblical style for conveying that message. |
| Now I ask you, do you believe God is a God of love, or of hate? Did Christ not die because Christ loved everyone? He gave the perfect sacrifice for sin. If God hates the sinner, then I would say it is only until they are dead and lived their life that he hates them. In Malachi it says God loved Jacob but hated Esua, but he didn't say this to Esua. | It's not either/or, it's both/and. Christ died for His sheep, but not for the goats | |||||
| 3 | They are preaching lies and I believe they are part of what is wrong with Christianity in America. Most churches are too soft and seeker friendly, all desert and no meat to their message. But here you have a church that is all condemnation and no love. | |||||
| 4 | Did Christ send us to judge those who are sinners? Or to love them? There are a lot of churches in the same category as WBC who twist scripture and take it out of context to fit their agenda. | This is a false antithesis. There is a difference between a sinner who is repenting and a sinner who glories in his sins. I believe we are to judge the difference, and respond accordingly. | Box 4: A sinner who is repenting would be someone who has found Christ. As a Christian do I not repent of my sin? Where as someone who "glories" in his sin would be someone lost. This would be who we were commanded to share the gospel with, the sinner, so that he might become one who would repent of his sin. | Homosexuals marching in a "gay pride" parade are not repentant. The are rebels, and they hate God. "Hate" is God's "default" position until He chooses out of grace to save a sinner from His white-hot wrath. That's Westboro's position, and it certainly has a plausibly Biblical basis. | Box 4: This notion that everyone is set at a default of God's wrath is unfounded. God loves all his creation, and this like any loving father he must punish his rebellious children. Those that are lost may hate God, but many do it out of ignorance. God still loves them and wants to embrace them, which is why he sent his son as the path to him. | Because of Adam, we are all born rebellious. The Last Adam died for His sheep, causes them to hear and obey. God does whatever He wants. God always gets His way. If He wants fellowship with someone, He regenerates their heart and makes them a "new creature." I see the verses that say God hates certain people, but no verses that say God "wants" Pharaoh and Judas to obey His commandments, but just isn't powerful enough to get what He wants. They were created to be disobedient and hated. |
| 5 | God does NOT hate fags, or Jews or those who are not saved. | I don't see how you can say that in light of these verses. | Box 5: You point out verses that are on their website. It is important to note what these verses are saying and the context. But I think Proverbs 6:16-19 proves my point:
"These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren." It never once says that God hates anyone. He hates the sin not the sinner. These verses talk about the sin of the person, not the people who are sinning. Because we are all sinners. To which you said in Box 6: " I am a sinner who has repented. I repudiate my sins. I obey Jesus. Jesus is my Lord, not my sins." This is true, but my point was that everyone is a sinner and that we must witness to the lost. |
Prov 6 does NOT prove your point. There are X number of verses that say God hates hard-hearted rebellious sinners. Then there's one verse that clearly is in the same category, but speaks in a somewhat different style. You interpret that style in a way that negates all the other verses. Instead, Prov. 6 must be interpreted in
light of what those other verses clearly say. In fact, even Prov 6 says God hates "a false witness who speaks lies," (not "false testimony" or "lies" in the abstract, but the person who makes false testimony) and "HE that soweth discord." Not "discord" in the abstract, but "HE" that sows discord. God hates HIM.
I disagree with that "hates the sin/loves the sinner" slogan. It's not what the Bible says.
Does not God send PEOPLE to hell? Not just sins. A "sinner" in this context is one who insists on sinning. Those who have forsaken their sins and are washed in the blood are "saints." Someone who claims to be a "saint" but insists on sinning is excommunicated -- cast out of the Body. I am not a "sinner" in this context. Of course saints must witness to lost sinners. |
Box 5: You are saying God hates those that sin until they repent. What about John 3:16 or 1 John 4:8?
1 John 4:8
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I agree that there are some who do not know God, and God never knew them (Matthew 7:21-23). |
| 6 | Because we are all sinners and have fallen sort of the glory of God. | I am a sinner who has repented. I repudiate my sins. I obey Jesus. Jesus is my Lord, not my sins. | ||||
| 7 | To say that God hates fags is like saying God hates liars, or those who lust, or those who are greedy and make a lot of money. Yet those are all things that Christians struggle with and are tempted with daily and sometimes they give into their sinful desires. Is being a homosexual any different from telling a lie? Better yet what is the real sin of a homosexual, is it the lust or the sex outside of marriage? |
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Box 7: Revelations is talking about what happens after we die. Of course those who are not saved will go to hell. But that isn't relevant to my statement that God does not hate Jews of "fags". Yelling "God hates fags!" does not save people from hell. If anything it hardens their hearts because they think that Christians are nut jobs. There are more tactful ways of sharing Christ with homosexuals. | "Tact" is an issue we can debate. We cannot debate the issue of whether God hates those whom He created to be the objects of His hatred and wrath (Romans 9:21). | Box 7: Romans 9:21 does not specifically talk about God making those to hate. I will venture to guess you are a Calvinist and believe that God predestined some to be saved and some to be cast into hell. Yet what about free will? | Romans 9 says God created people like Pharaoh, solely for the purpose of destroying them to show God's power.
"Free will" means we are created in the image of God, with reason and the power to plan and make choices. "Free will" does not mean God doesn't know what is happening, or what is going to happen, or lacks the power to make things happen the way He wants them to. Yes, I am a Calvinist. |
| 8 | You mentioned that WBC's stance of gays was better than most Baptists who are "tolerant". Does shouting "God hates fags" help spread the gospel? Is God not love (1 John 4:8)? | To say "You must be saved" is to say "you must be saved from God's hatred, anger, and wrath." So, yes, "God hates fags" helps spread the Gospel by preparing rebels to submit to their Lord. I admit it's not very eloquent. | Box 8: Where in the Bible does it say you must be saved from God? Being a Christian is about accepting God's gift of salvation. In OT time you had to give a sacrifice for your sins, but Christ did away with the old way and became the sacrifice. Christ became sin so that we wouldn't have to pay the price anymore. We are bought by the blood and because God loves us. John 3:16 "For God so LOVED the world he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not parish but have everlasting life." Salvation is a message of love not hate. | Saved from God's wrath:
Salvation is a message of being saved from God's hate. |
Box 8: Salvation is a message of being saved from eternal hell. God sends the unsaved to hell because he loves them not because he hates them. | You'll have to explain to me why eternal torture is a sign of love rather than hate. |
| 9 | I will not deny that our God is a violent God, just read the OT and you see it everywhere, but isn't His message, especially the NT about love? Isn't that the whole point of John 3:16, is His love? | The NT is no more about love than the OT, and no less about violent hate. | Box 9: You are right, and I never really contradicted it. Although after re-reading my comment it did appear that I was saying the NT was more about love and less about wrath. God is consistently God and will always be as he has always been; God. | It would be interesting to add up the verses. God was very long-suffering in the OT. A lot of sin piles up before God sends His wrath. Whereas in the NT all the wrath that was being stored up was unleashed on "that generation" that killed Christ. | Box 9: I was reading on your website that you believe all prophesy has been fulfilled already. And we are living in heaven now. That sounds like Mormonism. They believe everyone gets a heaven and this is Jesus' heaven. | Nothing at all like Mormonism. |
| 10 | The old saying goes "you catch more flies with sugar...", you are more effective sharing the gospel when you approach people in love and not wrath. "Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord." It is not our place to judge those or to condemn them, it is however to "love thy neighbor as thyself." I wouldn't shout "God hates you" into the mirror, nor would I to a homosexual. | God doesn't hate me. He regenerated my heart and saved me. These verses show that there are those that God does not love, or at least He has not yet chosen to love them, as long as they continue to hate Him and rebel against His commandments.
It is our place to judge. We are to "judge righteous judgment." |
Box 10: Those verses show God hates sin not sinners. God has always loved man and that is why he has given us a way to him through Christ. Some live blindly and we must share the gospel with them, then they people aware and if they chose to ignore Christs message and live apart from God then they will forever be lost. But just because you ignore God as a youth doesn't mean you can't repent later in life. But the main point is that when we share the gospel it must be in love | Read the verses in the link above. Jesus preached a lot of love-less messages. He sounds like Fred Phelps. | Box 10: To compare Fred Phelps to Christ is blasphemy! Did Jesus not hang out with tax collectors, prostitutes and those in need of his love? Phelps preaches a false doctrine of hate that I believe contradicts the "great commission." | Jesus hung out with repentant prostitutes, and tax collectors who left their post (like Matthew) and made restitution (like Zaccheus). He spoke like Fred Phelps when talking with the Pharisees. "Teaching them to observe whatsoever I have commanded" is not in conflict with saying God hates those who hate His commandments. |