| Roman Ropp | Kevin Craig |
| Hosea 8:4 They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off. |
I have cited Hosea in my
analysis of 1 Samuel 8: http://KevinCraig.us/1samuel8.htm I am an anarchist. I believe all governments are violations of God's Commandments. They should not exist. But God predestines evil doers who are committed to autonomy rather than Theonomy to create governments, and these evil doers serve God's purposes. |
| When we turn from Him then He allows our own wickedness to punish us and correct us; | You say "he allows," but the Bible says "He ORDAINS." The points is, God is sovereign over these evil doers, and HE commands us to "be subject" to them. |
| Jeremiah 2:19 King James Version (KJV) 19 Thine own wickedness shall correct thee, and thy backslidings shall reprove thee: know therefore and see that it is an evil thing and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the Lord thy God, and that my fear is not in thee, saith the Lord God of hosts. |
I'm not sure what the point
of this verse is. v.35 says this is the judgment of God (as if that isn't clear). |
| You will notice that in Habakkuk 1:4 Israel had chosen to reject God and rule by their own authority and in verses 6-7 God allows the Chaldeans, who do the same as the Israelites are doing, to become an evil power over the nations. | You say "allows," the Bible says ORDAINS. |
| Habakkuk 1:4, 6-7New American Standard Bible (NASB) | |
| 4 Therefore the law is [a]ignored And justice [b]is never upheld. For the wicked surround the righteous; Therefore justice comes out perverted. |
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| 6 “For behold, I
am raising up the Chaldeans, That [a]fierce and impetuous people Who march [b]throughout the earth To [c]seize dwelling places which are not theirs. 7 “They are dreaded and feared; Their justice and [d]authority [e]originate with themselves. |
In other words, I AM
ORDAINING evil governments and their rapacious armies. God is in charge of the Assyrians, the ISIS of their day. God ordains Chaldeans and Egyptians and Romans to "serve" His purposes. In Isaiah 13:3 God calls the Babylonians His "sanctified ones." |
| Notice their authority originates with themselves which really is no authority at all just power that God allows as punishment on mankind for not obeying Him. You do recall that Daniel and his friends did not recognize the authority of the Chaldeans, but rather only the authority of God. Just as Peter and the Apostles said; | You say "allows,"
the Bible says ORDAIN Verse 12: O Lord,
You have appointed them for judgment; |
| Acts 5:29 But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men. |
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| You also do realize that they only had one King and so they most certainly were not "subject" to Caesar; | You are mistaken. That's like saying wives have only one Head (Christ), so wives are not "subject" to their husbands. But the same word in Romans 13:1 and 5 is found in 1 Corinthians 14:34, Colossians 3:18, Titus 2:5, 1 Peter 3:1,5, and Ephesians 5:24. That's like saying we have only one Master, so slaves are not to "be subject" to their earthly masters. But the same word in Romans 13:1 and 5 is found in Titus 2:9 and 1 Peter 2:18 http://Romans13.com/hupotasso.htm |
| Acts 17:6-7New American Standard Bible (NASB) 6 When they did not find them, they began dragging Jason and some brethren before the city authorities, shouting, “These men who have upset [a]the world have come here also; 7 [b]and Jason has welcomed them, and they all act contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, Jesus.” |
The claim that Christians were not subject to Caesar was a slanderous lie. The Jews tried it against Jesus, saying He was an enemy of the Roman Empire by claiming to be a King, trying to get Jesus put to death, but in John 18:38 “Pilate ... went out to the Jews, and said to them, ‘I find no fault in Him at all.’” |
| and clearly were not attempting to serve two masters as the Pharisees did which resulted in; | |
| John 19:15 So they cried out, “Away with Him, away with Him, crucify Him!” Pilate *said to them, “Shall I crucify your King?” The chief priests answered, “We have no king but Caesar.” |
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| With the understanding that Christians recognize no other King but Jesus it should be clear that Romans 13, Titus3:1-2, and 1 Peter 2:13-15 are speaking of Him and His kingdom not the kings and kingdoms of this world. | Just plain wrong. Read the whole chapter of 1 Peter 2. Peter is talking about being subject to earthly authorities, just as Christ was. Recall Justin Martyr's apologia that Christians were the best citizens. |
| Kevin, it is quite clear that when man rejects God and His law they set up their own law and kings and those kings are a terror not only to the wicked (in fact more often than not they praise the wicked) but to those who do good. In fact Nero bore the sword against Christians. Are you claiming Nero was minister of God, to execute wrath on those evil Christians? | Yes, absolutely, Nero was a "minister," diakonos, who "served" diakoneo, God's purposes. All of those evil empires were. |
| Romans 13:3-4 King James Version (KJV) | |
| 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: | The point in
Romans 13 is not the duty of governors, but the duty of Christians.
Christians are not to fear Caesar. Matthew 10:28 |
| 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. |